Rob Berg, President of the Zionist Federation of New Zealand
Despite the many conflicts around the world, there seems to be few as emotive, and that garner as much attention, as the Israeli-Palestinian one. And whenever there is a flare up, we see a rush to judgment against Israel before the full facts are known, an uncritical embrace of the Palestinian narrative, and a disregard for context and analysis.
This has been evident once again since the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza embarked over 6 weeks ago on their “Great March of Return”, a so-called peaceful march which last Monday resulted in the deaths of 62 of their number. Israel was condemned around much of the world, the Ambassador of Israel to New Zealand called into the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and, linking it to the move of the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, the Prime Minister commented on “the devastating, one-sided loss of life”. She didn’t say how many Israeli deaths would have prevented her recrimination.
Gotta Love a Trier. . .
How many inaccuracies can one man try to state?
Here is an evaluation. My comments in Brackets:
Israelis kill more than 50 Palestinians in Gaza protests, health officials say.
Despite the many conflicts around the world, there seems to be few as emotive, and that garner as much attention, as the Israeli-Palestinian one. And whenever there is a flare up, we see a rush to judgment (After 7 weeks, over 12,500 Palestinians Injured, over 5,500 SHOT and more than 110 KILLED, there was NO Rush to Judgement here) against Israel before the full facts are known, an uncritical embrace of the Palestinian narrative, and a disregard for context and analysis. (The context is Thousands of Unarmed Palestinian Civilians decided to protest their Occupation and Abuse and Israel decided to POLICE that action with more than 100 SNIPERS deployed at the Gaza fence with Orders to shoot the Unarmed Civilians without reserve)
This has been evident once again since the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza embarked over 6 weeks ago on their “Great March of Return”, a so-called peaceful march which last Monday resulted in the deaths of 62 of their number. Israel was condemned around much of the world, the Ambassador of Israel to New Zealand called into the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and, linking it to the move of the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, the Prime Minister commented on “the devastating, one-sided loss of life”. She didn’t say how many Israeli deaths would have prevented her recrimination. (Lets see. Once again the figures. More than 12,500 Unarmed Palestinian Civilians Injured, over 5,500 SHOT and more than 110 KILLED. Israeli Casualties – ZERO)
There are some things that are indisputable facts. One such fact is that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza (but continued the Occupation by control of Gaza’s Borders including the Sea as well as Egyptian Border through its peace agreement with Egypt. Since the withdrawal, Israel has attacked and Killed thousands of Gaza Civilians, destroyed Civilian Infrastructure, put Gaza on a Diet, etc. The Very Definition of Terrorism – “the unlawful use of VIOLENCE and intimidation, especially against CIVILIANS, in the pursuit of POLITICAL AIMS“ ) in 2005, a territory it captured from Egypt when it was attacked by its neighbours in 1967. (Israel’s Neighbours DID NOT attack Israel. It was Israel that attacked the neighbours destroying the Jordanian Air Force as it was laid out in Peace Mode. Egypt was Sabre rattling and did not attack first. Even the Israeli Generals said Egypt’s actions were NEVER a Threat but an Opportunity. Also, Israel attacked the USS Liberty, trying to sink it and Kill everyone onboard. A US Naval ship it had identified at 6am. Over 8 hours before the Attack. Then again and again in its SIX over flights of the Liberty. . .) Another is that in 2007 Hamas took over control in Gaza from Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah following a bloody coup that ended the power sharing arrangement the two groups had since the 2006 elections, the last time elections were held in Gaza. (Remember that Hamas WON the election and that it was Fatah which was trying to carry out a Coup in Gaza. Hamas won the battle in Gaza and ejected the Fatah people who were carrying out the Coup)
Since then, Hamas has imposed a tyrannical regime on its people. It has taken millions of dollars of aid received from around the world, New Zealand included, and rather than using it to benefit its people, has prioritised attacking and killing innocent Israelis, investing in weapons, rockets and tunnels burrowing under Israel, and necessitating an Israeli and Egyptian blockade. (Under International Law, the Occupied has the right to fight back against the Occupier. It behoves us to remember the time line. Israel invaded Gaza in 1967. Hamas was only set up in 1987, 20 years later, and only started firing ineffectual rockets into Israel in the late 1990’s. 30 years after Israel invaded. If Israel wanted Peace, it had more than 30 years to do so BEFORE Hamas started fighting back!) The only thing preventing a calamity so far has been the Iron Dome and the skill and determination of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).
These warmongering actions of Hamas should be no surprise, because its charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews around the world, which includes New Zealand. It has no desire for a peaceful settlement (Hamas has offered a 15 year truce. Any thinking person Knows that after the build up of Infrastructure in that time, Hamas would not fight and have it destroyed again. It is Israel that has REFUSED to agree on a 15 year truce! Hamas has said nothing about wanting to kill Jews in New Zealand.) that includes the existence of the State of Israel in any form.
The “protest” on May 14, which was timed to coincide with the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem but was not because of it, saw some 40,000 Gazans amass at the border, in 11 locations. Hamas openly urged Gazans to breach the border and bring knives and guns to massacre as many Israelis as possible. Footage from the IDF shows Gazans doing as instructed, hurling Molotov cocktails, wielding meat cleavers, burning tyres to create a smokescreen (A SMOKESCREEN to try to disrupt Israeli SNIPERS who had been Deliberately shooting Unarmed Civilian Protesters previously!), and setting off incendiary devices at the border. There were several gun fights. (When one talks about the Protests at the Gaza fence and what happened next, one has to remember who Israel is KILLING and MAIMING. Let’s see. An 80 year old man over 200 Meters from the fence talking to Journalists. A Man at Prayer. A Canadian Doctor shot in Both legs while helping the injured. A women holding a Palestinian Flag. Many Medics treating the wounded. 17 Journalists wearing PRESS on their vests, 2 killed. 17 Ambulances. Many, Many Children. A man in a wheelchair. And many more. . . More than FIVE THOUSAND Five Hundred Palestinian Civilians SHOT. )
Out of the 62 dead, 50 have been confirmed by Hamas as their operatives and a further 3 have been confirmed by Islamic Jihad, another terrorist group, as theirs. That equates to 85 per cent of those killed on that day. The other 15 per cent, assuming they are all civilians, is indeed tragic but the blame lies with Hamas and not Israel, for it is Hamas who forces and pays people to go to the “front line” and take on the IDF. (Israel says they shot Hamas operatives. 50 of them. Do the Maths. 50 out of 5,500 is LESS THAN 1 percent. That means over 99% of the Gazans shot by Israel were Unarmed Civilians! Once again conforming to the Definition of Terrorism. “The ILLEGAL use of VIOLENCE against CIVILIANS for a POLITICAL AIM” – i.e. to deter protests. This fits exactly Israel’s Terrorist “Dahiya Doctrine” which is to Destroy Civilian Infrastructure and Kill Civilians to create a Deterrence. Look that up. . .)
While the IDF stands at the border protecting its people, Hamas pushes its people towards the border and hides behind them. It does so with the experience-based knowledge that the international community will respond to images of the dead with a knee jerk reaction that excoriates Israel, and indeed, to Hamas’ triumph, this is what occurred. (Lets get this right. Israel Deployed more than 100 SNIPERS on the Gaza fence. On raised mounds overlooking the area. It provided highly accurate SNIPER Rifles to those men. Rifles accurate up to 500 Meters so the SNIPER could place his rounds highly accurately. There were No Mistakes in what their bullets hit! Rumours, and pictures, are that Israel also provided Illegal Dum Dum Butterfly Bullets to those SNIPERS which massively Maim when they hit. Then the Israeli SNIPERS Deliberately Lined up Unarmed Protesting Civilians in their Telescopic Sight Cross hairs and, as trained, pulled the trigger sending the Dum Dum bullets into their Victims! Here is the IDF Tweet on who they were shooting- “Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed”. So we KNOW that when many children and men have been shot in the legs causing Horrific wounds and Amputations, Israel Deliberately Decided to carry out those acts! Those Terrorist Acts by Definition!)
Yet no one has suggested an alternative military strategy against an attempted mass border breach. Tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons and other tools at the IDF’s disposal proved ineffective. (Israel DID NOT use these methods at all. Israel used 100 SNIPERS from Day One! Deliberately KILLING and MAIMING to try to deter the Palestinians from protesting.) The final option (The First Option Israel CHOSE!) was to use live ammunition at those posing a real threat (Israel SHOT more than 5,500 UNARMED Palestinian Civilian Protesters. . . The only “Threat” they posed was by continuing to live and demand their Inalienable Human Rights! After FIFTY YEARS of Occupation!) to Israeli civilians. The fact that they killed 62 out of 40,000, 53 of whom are confirmed as terrorists, shows they did so with restraint and accuracy.
As with any other country, Israel has the duty and right to protect its borders and sovereignty. (If Israel was shooting Armed Militants as they crossed the Fence, it is NOT a BORDER, they may have an argument. The Fact is that Israel shot more than FIVE THOUSAND Five Hundred people, more an 99% of them Unarmed Civilians and many of them hundreds of meters away from that Prison fence. It was a Planned and Deliberate Massacre and MAIMING program to try to stop Palestinians from Protesting for their Human Rights. Remember that many of the people of Gaza are refugees from the land that is now in Israel. There have been many UN Resolutions calling for the Refugees to be allowed to return to their homes, lands and villages. Even Sderot, near the Gaza fence, is located on the Village that was Ethnically Cleansed of Arabs in 1948. Indeed, many of the Arab Villages were destroyed and then planted over. More than 200 of them have no inhabitants and are there if Israel ever does what the UN is asking. To let the Refugees return. If one takes the time to read the Israel declaration of Independence, you will find that ALL INHABITANTS of the land that became Israel became Israeli Citizens on that day. There was NO DISTINCTION between Jews and Arabs in the Declaration except that more than 750,000 of the people who were logically Israeli Citizens on that day were driven from their homes and lands by more than 100 MASSACRES for the mere fact that they were not Jews.)
By Now, even the most ardent of zionist supporters must be ralising that Rob’s letter is wildly inaccurate.
Cheers Rob. Nice Try.
But your letter is Obvious to anyone who has read some history. And once you enter the Rabbit hole of finding the truth, you will Never believe the zionist “Propogands Narrative” again.
To Neil: Nice try, yourself.
If you bothered to read it properly he is talking about the deaths on the Monday; he isn’t talking about the total death toll during the entire propaganda campaign.
You make it sound like anyone who reads history is going to come out on your side but your reading is so selective it makes me laugh.
By your logic, an Ashkenazi Jew can’t be seen as an indigenous people in the Middle East. Again selective history.
You ignore that several countries have named Hamas as a terrorist organisation and that the blockade is enforced by Egypt too.
You make it sound like children can’t be terrorists; you make it sound like a person in a wheelchair can’t be a terrorist even though photos shows a wheel chair user wielding a deadly weapon.
You make it sound like Hamas didn’t urge people to try and tear down the fence.
You make it sound like there were no warnings from the Israelis that deadly force would be used if they tried to breach the fence.
You seem so convinced that someone who diligently researches the subject is going to come out concluding your narrative.
But you’re so wrong its obvious you are a propagandist yourself. Keep drinking the Hamas Kool-Aid.
You say the Israelis shot “without reserve.” Let’s see only 62 got killed on that Monday. These Israeli snipers must be the most poorly trained snipers in military history.
You say look stuff up but Wikipedia says different. But that doesn’t fit your story. Perhaps you might want to go and edit the Wikipedia pages to suit yourself.
Any student of warfare will know that shooting into a crowd of up to 40,000 people to only kill 62 in one day and maybe (unconfirmed) 110 over several days is poor shooting or the soldiers really did show restraint.
Perhaps you want to cast your eye over to Syria and see how efficient the Russians can be. When you do you will see a good example of what real open warfare is like.
What you say hardly bears scrutiny. You give yourself the ring of credibility by inviting people to look stuff up but actually when they read widely, as I have, they will indeed see that yours is a very one-eyed view.
Got to love a trier.
Shlomo reverts to zionist Hasbara teaching 101. Try to define the Narrative by defining the start time of an issue.
Like Israel Killing a Hamas Operative and when Hamas fires back, Shlomo will insist that Israel was attacked Unprovoked. Ignoring the original Israeli attack on Hamas. . . Just so obvious!
Then there is Shlomo’s desperate attempt to deny the Context in what happened.
Israel DID shoot more than 5,500 UNARMED CIVILIAN Protesters at the Gaza Fence. Less than ONE percent of those were Hamas operatives. Which makes more than 99% of the people SHOT just Civilians carryng out their Legal Right to Protest on the Gaza side of the Prison Fence.
Nice try Shlomo.
But you may want to look up the Definition of Terrorism – “the unlawful use of VIOLENCE and intimidation, especially against CIVILIANS, in the pursuit of POLITICAL AIMS”
Israels actions on the Gaza fence aligns directly to the definition of Terrorism!
On Research, Shlomo may be that young that he only reads Wikipedia. But those with a Genuine and Honest Interest in the Palestine/Israel issue do real research. You must Know about BOOKS Shlomo. Many of them written by Jewish Historians and Jouranalists. But I am going to guess you will use that zionist insult that any free thinking Jew is a “Self Hating Jew”!
Anyone wanting a resource with References can go here – https://lettersforpalestine.weebly.com/key-authors–books.html Just a note, the majority of the books listed are available from Libraries in Auckland.
If you prefer Video, soem relevant video are listed here – https://lettersforpalestine.weebly.com/relevant-video.html One really worth watchign is by Miko Peled who was out here a few years ago. “The Generals Son”.
Then there is Gideon Levy who was in Auckland earlier this year.
Maybe “Breaking the Silence” where Israeli Soldiers speak out about the attrocities they were ordered to carry out in the Occupied Territories!
If anyone wants more confirmation that Shlomo is out of his depth on this issue, Have a look at Jewish Voice for Peace’s site.https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Maybe just a bit more on the Background for Shlomo – http://normanfinkelstein.com/2018/05/23/as-it-did-in-the-past-hamas-is-offering-a-long-term-cease-fire-known-in-arabic-as-hudna-in-return-for-a-lifting-of-the-blockade-it-conveyed-such-a-proposal-to/
As Always, I say that people Should Not Take My Word (or Shlomo’s) Unquestioningly and do some wide spread research.
Once you start that research, you will Never take zionisms talking points at face value ever again. That is exactly how I started on this journey.
And this is exactly what Shlomo fears the most.
Neil: Readers can figure out for themselves your game.
But maybe some can’t and those are the ones you are relying on to convince. So I’ll spell it out for them.
Read his latest comment carefully.
For example, he thinks he’s a mind reader and things I’m fearful.
He thinks I cite Wikipedia and then he thinks I don’t read anything else.
He puts words in my mouth.
Put together, you can see for yourself what kind of propagandist he is.
Well Shlomo.
I guess BOTH of us are Playing games.
My “Game” is looking for the truth and encouraging Other People to do the same.
Just like the young Jewish boy I met at ther Celebration of the Israel Declaration of Independence at Silo Park.
I told him about Israels Hannabal Protocol. You know. It’s where Israel KILLS any of it’s soldiers being captured by an enemy. In Gaza, Israel dropped 200 One Ton Bombs in an area the size of Kohimarama to make sure Hadar Goldin being captured by Hamas did not survive any any form to be bartered for Palestinian Prisoners held by Israel.
He said he did not believe me but he would look it up. . .
That Damn “Rabbit Hole”. Once he finds out Israel is will to kill Jewish Soldiers being captured by Hamas, he will look further. . . And find out the truth. . .
The exact thing zionists fear the most. People researching to find out the truth.
Here is a simple talk by Miko Peled, The Generals Son. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhNf__kYviY
Anyone else reading this discourse between Shlomo and I can watch a Jew talk about the issues of Palestine/Israel.
Come on Shlomo. Please reply. There is a lot more information you don’t want publicised over here. 😉
Neil: I’ve been thinking about your game.
I’m not sure your game is what you say it is. If you were, you wouldn’t be sardonically baiting me, you’d be trying to understand more about me, how much I knew about the whole thing.
Instead its full of cynicism and scorn. I don’t know why, you don’t even know me.
I’m not sure the Israel-Palestinian thing is something you want to solve. It’s just a platform for your macabre pleasure.
I suspect that if it wasn’t the Middle East it’d be something else. I think you’re just a troll. I’m sorry for you.
Our Internet Safety class at school talked about trolls. They told us about what to do if we meet one.
So I won’t feed your addiction with replying to you anymore. It won’t help you with your long term recovery.
WEell Shlomo.
All I have to say is that you should keep safe.
Is it better to stay aligned with one Comfortable “Narrative” or is it better to research widely and look for the truth. Ask your Teachers at your school.
That is the very industry your teachers are working with.
If reading anything a Non Jew has to say is unacceptable to you, there are many Jewish Authors, Historians and groups who have written on the issue of Palestine/Israel. (below)
I recommend you just google a few of these to get a taste of what Jews around the world are saying. You have nothing to loose by doing some research. Breaking the silence and B’tSelem are very good.
Organisations
– Akevot
– Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI)
– Breaking the Silence
– B’tSelem (in the image of God)
– Coalition of Women for Peace
– Emek Shaveh
– Peace Now
– Gisha
– Hadash
– Hamoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual
– Human Rights Defenders Fund
– Gush Shalom
– Ir Amim
– Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights
– Jewish Voice for Peace
– Jews for Justice in Palestine – mesarvot
– MachsomWatch
– Seeds of Peace
– Jews And Arabs Refuse To Be Enemies
– American Jews for a Just Peace
– Count The Kids
– Independent Jewish Voices
– Meretz (Political Party)
– Neturei Karta
– New Israel Fund
– Physicians for Human Rights – Israel
– Rabbis for Human Rights
– The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel
– Women Wage Peace
– YaLa
– Yish Den
– Yachad
– Zochrot
People
– Miko Peled
– Gideon Levy
– Ilan Pappe
– Richard Silverstein
– Israel Shahak
– Anna Baltzer
– Max Blumenthal
– Mearsheimer and Walt
– Noam Chomsky
Dear Neil
you are very preoccupied seeking guilt and preaching morals, but you overlook a number of truths:
— Israel is here to stay: the Jewish people are also legitimate natives/owners of this land
— Israel is very powerful militarily, socially, and economically. She will not hesitate to use her might in order to defend herself against any one trying to, or threatening to infiltrate her self-proclaimed borders with an intention to harm. It is really not relevant to analyse whether they are armed with hot weapons, knives, or unarmed. She will still defend herself against them, and will do that according to HER best judgement, not yours.
– Israel will continue to seek peace with any neighbor ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE their acceptance of her right to exist in security as a sovereign Jewish state. But she will only accept a peace deal based on what SHE perceives to be defendable borders at the time of the negotiations. She is not interested in other types of peace,and certainly not in some Arab “peace’ models such as the one we see in Syria, Yemen, or Iraq. She is also not interested in the Iranian ‘peace project’ for the Middle East.
– Until such neighbor is found, Israel will continue working hard for the prosperity of her citizens, Jews and non-Jews, and will continue building, building, and building.
– All the rest are empty words. Live with this. And if you really want a solution, I could suggest you to seek it within these terms. It may be easier than you think.
Usual zionist clap trap tryin gtop put words in other peoples mouths. The sign of their dishonesty.
I Agree/Support Israel staying as a state in the Middle East.
But not as a Racist State.
Or an Apartheid state.
Or a Terrorist state. (shooting 5,500 Unarmed Civilian Protesters is Terrorism)
zionists may love their Racism, Apartheid and Terrorism but growing numbers of people around the world disagree with that stance. Including growing numbers of informed Jews.
Growing numbers of young Jews in the US are starting to reject that Racism, Apartheid and Terrorism.
What I can tell you is this. Israel is dependent on the US as a sponsor and when the older US zionists Die Out and young people gain more influence, Israel is either going to change or drown in it’s Racism and Apartheid.
On your “Jewish State”, you seem to be approving of Ben Gurions more than 100 Massacres to drive the Arab INHABITANTS out of their homes and lands that became part of Israel.
Look up Israels Declaration of Independence to see how that Document has been totally disrespected by Ben Gurion and he formed a state on a pack of lies.
I suspect real zionists Hate that Declaration for the rights it gave the Arab INHABITANTS of that land. Just like the young zionist woman who ripped a copy of that Declaration from my hands on Sunday and threw it in the Gutter outside Q Theatre. Then grabbing at the Palestinian flag I held she hit me in the face. Ignorance and Hate seemed to be part of her very shallow character. What kind of brainwashing makes someone like her hate so Viscerally that she has to assault the person she disagrees with? A person she knows Nothing about.
On the issue of Israel’s Powerful military. Three points.
1) In 2006 in Lebanon, The Israeli soldiers were on the verge of Cutting and Running when the Israel military ordered the withdrawal before it bacame a route. Young Israeli soldiers inculcated on abusing an unarmed civilian population do not do well against an armed and trained Militia. And the Israeli troops had only met the front outposts of the Lebanese forces and had not reached the main body. Luckily for them.
2) Israel can only maintain a war for 30 days before the economy starts to tank. Look at Syria. Look at the Iran/Iraq war. These people are willing to fight for their freedom for YEARS. Something Israel cannot do.
3) Israel locates many of it’s Military bases beside population areas. As well as it’s Chemical weapons plants and Industrial Chemical plants. All of which are legitimate targets in a war. Israels positioning of those plants will lead to many, many thousands of deaths from the release of those chemicals in a war. A war Israel will chose to start through it’s arrogance.
On the rest, if Israel really wanted a peace deal, it would have signed up to it years ago, For Instance, Israel invaded Gaza in 1967. Hamas was only formed 20 years later in 1987. It has always been Israels choice not to acheive peace. Jeez. Even Ben Gurion and Matti peled called for it but the cretins in charge at the time rejected that. All for a dream of Lebansraum based on Ethnic Cleansing.
zionists always try to define the Narrative. But the Facts as they happen will be the final Narrative.
Israel WILL go Nuclear in their desperation not to lose a war in future and the rest of the world will then act. A Rogue Nuclear armed power anywhere in the world will not be tolerated.
Tick Tock Alexis. I hope and wish it won’t be this way but I suspect that the Buffoon in charge in Tel Aviv will have to have his armageddon before he is sent to jail for Corruption. Like a few Israeli Politicians before him.
PS. And on your last sentence, here I was thinking that Peace was meant to be Negotiated and not a Nazi like Diktat. . .
Dear Nail,
Israel is here to stay on her own terms. She is a sovereign Nation and has her own plans for herself. And she is not interested in the current Arab concept of ‘peace’ (for obvious reasons). It is clear that you don’t like it, but it is what it is. Live with it!
Regarding your prediction of an ‘isolated’ Israel, at the moment we only see the opposite: India, China, and Russia approaching Israel (and her elected Prime Minister) as friends and partners, a growing volume of trade between Israel and other nations, embassies gradually moving to Jerusalem, the contribution Israel is making in so many scholarly fields. And the best of all: who is continuously staging and fueling anti-Israel rhetoric in the world? Turkey’s Erogan, Iran’s Ayatollas, North Korea’s Kim, Cuba’s regime. It makes you wonder, isn’t it?
Cheers
Dear Alexis.
You missed out the following people and organisation who are critical of zionism/Israeli Terrorism. Many of them Jewish. . .
I am guessing that many Israel/zionist supporters have NEVER done any Real Investigation into what is happening in Palestine.
zionisms depends on them rejecting looking into the issues and endlessly feeds them the Approved Narrative on a daily basis. IS THIS YOU?
If they had any honesty, they would do some research. Like here – https://lettersforpalestine.weebly.com/research-list.html
Organisations
– Akevot
– Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI)
– Breaking the Silence
– B’Tselem (in the image of God)
– Coalition of Women for Peace
– Emek Shaveh
– Peace Now
– Gisha
– Hadash
– Hamoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual
– Human Rights Defenders Fund
– Gush Shalom
– Ir Amim
– Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights
– Jewish Voice for Peace
– Jews for Justice in Palestine – mesarvot
– Machsom Watch
– Seeds of Peace
– Jews And Arabs Refuse To Be Enemies
– American Jews for a Just Peace
– Count The Kids
– Independent Jewish Voices
– Meretz (Political Party)
– Neturei Karta
– New Israel Fund
– Physicians for Human Rights – Israel
– Rabbis for Human Rights
– The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel
– Women Wage Peace
– YaLa
– Yish Den
– Yachad
– Zochrot
– The Other Voice
People
– Miko Peled
– Gideon Levy
– Ilan Pappe
– Richard Silverstein
– Israel Shahak
– Anna Baltzer
– Max Blumenthal
– Mearsheimer and Walt
– Noam Chomsky
Hello Neil,
I see that you prefer the never ending game of who is right and who is wrong and keep repeating the boring arguments about Israel (and Zionism) being racist, terrorist, nazi and similar nonsense.
The sad reality is different, and it is now acknowledged by millions of Arabs (even Palestinians): Arabs are slaughtering each other everywhere in the Middle East and there is complete devastation of entire Arab countries with millions of hopeless refugees. Gays and lesbians are still stoned and honour killings still practiced in most Arab countries (including Palestine). Almost everywhere in the Arab world there is lack of basic infrastructure, high infant and labour mortality, retrograde economies, corrupt despotic leaderships. As we speak, the Palestinians you think you are defending are being slaughtered in Yarmuk by the Syrian army. And you pick on Israel? Who can blame Israel for defending her way of life and not willing to make more concessions and put herself in danger? Israel may be willing to offer a ceasefire in return of ceasefire. But concessions? What do Arabs have to offer now except misery?
That’s the real world, not a fantasyland of empty words. But I’ll tell you something that all Israeli children know: One day, when Israel sees that Arabs are able to make peace with each other and put their own home in order, she might want to join their peace deal.
By the way, I respect the opinion of all those Jews you cite and find some opinions interesting. They have a role to play in Jewish history (although marginal). Many of them remind me other self-hating Jews throughout history.
This is my last say Neil, thanks for debating. Bye.
LOL
The last standard statement of the zionists who refuses to look at the facts. “Many of them remind me other SELF-HATING JEWS throughout history.”. . .
At least you show your real colors.
Probably incapable of looking at views that go against “Approved” zionist “Narratives”.
I was an ardent supporter of Israel and believed Israel could do no wrong until I decided to prove someone wrong in a discussion. I Researched what he was saying. . . And it proved my position based on zionist Narratives was wrong.
Once you start going down that Rabbit Hole of research, you begin to understand that the zionists Narrative is mostly Lies. And once having seen some truth about One issue, you research the next one. And the next. . .
Just in case you decide that you are Allowed to research past the Approved talking points, here is another URL with easily watched video. Probably mainly by all those Self Hating Jews you see surrounding you.
You have nothing to lose other than your Brainwashing. Something Professor Nurit Peled-Elhanan covered in her book and this Lecture – Palestine in Israeli School Books – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJSJ5ZduO48
Just another Self Hating Jew who has studied the issue. 😉
Bye.
Good luck with your Wikipedia studies about the evils of Zionism Neil!
It was using Google for tracking down sources. Not Wikipedia.
The Libraries in Auckland are very good and what they don’t cover can be bought on Kindle.
Go here and you will see a partial list of my research items. Each one watched or read.
https://lettersforpalestine.weebly.com/research-list.html
https://lettersforpalestine.weebly.com/key-authors–books.html
https://lettersforpalestine.weebly.com/relevant-video.html
Benny Morris was excellent in his documenting the Massacres and Ethic Cleansing carried out by zionists.
And just for you, I will bring up Professor Nurit Peled-Elhanan who tells how the entire Israeli education system teaches racism that continues through life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc3L1oVXVt0
Go on, I dare you. If you are a supporter of Israel, you will want to know the facts.
You will want to be as well read as I am on this subject.
Lastly. Read the Israel Declaration of Independence and consider who the INHABITANTS are that are referenced Three times in that document. Surely you have read the founding document of Israel. The document that a young zionist woman snatched from my hands last Sunday and threw in the Gutter as if she knew what was in it and disliked the obligations of zionisms under that document.
Mauri Ora.
What a superb collection of cherry picked selective readings! You must feel an erudire, eh? Trolll!
Regarding Neil:
Readers, you have to watch for what Neil is not saying just as much as what he is saying, to figure out that he isn’t as plausible as he sounds.
For example, he talks about “inhabitants” in the declaration of independence but then leaves out that the “inhabitants” he has in mind, are bent on destroying the State of Israel, that its very existence is an anathema to them.
Maybe he’s blind to the security argument because he doesn’t think Israel should exist in its current form anyway, so whatever anyone does in the name of destroying Israel is legitimized as a partisan act or act of resistance.
He rattles on about Apartheid and doesn’t realize that it was the international community’s desire to set up an ethnic homeland that legitimizes Israel as a Jewish homeland.
Neil’s apartheid point takes away the world’s right to create ethnic refuges where that ethnicity might be experiencing widespread persecution just for being born into that ethnic group.
Neil ignores that Jews are indigenous people too. He tries to somehow make the Arab-Israeli conflict seem analogous to the Maori-Pakeha indigenous rights issue.
But there are many prominent Maori who see the Jew as the disenfranchised indigenous people. Not the Arabs.
In fact the Arabs are the foreign conquerors. They never had an international community vote for a homeland to be established.
Neil uses a series of tactics to get you riled up so that you don’t think clearly: He baits you to get you to reply, then he buries you with lots of selective references and his strange use of Maori language to give himself plausibility.
Looking at what he’s said so far, you will never see him acknowledge that whoever he thinks disagrees with him has any truth in what they say.
You won’t see him give you a list of well researched articles and opinions that point out the weaknesses in the “sources” and “expert opinions” that he puts out there.
I’m not saying don’t read his list. Just be very aware that his is an extremely blinkered view of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
After reading his list, go and read the even larger body of learned and researched writings that put the other side before making up your mind.
But someone else has said he is a troll. He gets off on people replying and it seems, he always wants the last word. Therefore this will be my last time I place a comment on this thread, he has had too much oxygen already.
Having had a few minutes to think this through.
What I noticed was that the person who joined in the Conversation did so anonymously hiding behind the designation “Admin” and hiding his/her name.
So he/she lied about what I said by trying to put words I never said into my mouth and hid behind “Admin”.
At that time, he/she stopped being an Administrator and became a Participant.
Such Dishonesty and Cowardice is fascinating.
Some people reading will know who he/she is. And whether you can ever trust that person again. . .
My my.
And here I was thinking “Admin” was meant to stop the comments of Anti-Semitism and bad language. Not be a Participant in a discussion on one side or another. I guess I have to revise what I think it means to be the “Administrator” of a site. . .
Here is the comment from Admin (below) that doesn’t seem to have made it into the Discourse above.
It is made up of many things I have Not Said and do not espouse.
Which is the typical zionist way of trying to discredit someone who has a good point to make. Put words in their mouths that they have never said and then condemn them for saying it.
The whole issue in Palestine/Israel is about Human Rights. And many zionists fight Tooth and Nail to deny the Human Rights that they demand for themselves.
As my discussion with David Cumin unveiled, he does not believe that Palestinians under Occupation have any rights under Geneva Conventions. And I didn’t get him to agree that the “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” or the “Convention of the Rights of the Child” apply to Palestinians. Indeed, when I put those very questions to Juliet Moses, she evaded the question and then finally blocked me from Facebook and Twitter. Better Not to have to face uncomfortable questions that to expose your position by avoiding them. I still do not know if Juliet, a Senior Partner in a Law Firm, agrees that the Palestinians under Occupation have any LEGAL Rights at all.
My final word is that it looks as if This “Admin” wants to shut down debate and is prepared to Censor anyone who has a cogent argument to make which shows another Perspective top the one they support. It seems as if they fear people doing their own independent research and coming to their own understanding on this issue.
It is unlikely that they will have the honesty to publish this response to their disingenuous attack on my position.
PS – Many of the INHABATANTS mentioned in the Israel Declaration of Independence are now REFUGEES from the land that is Israel. Over a Million of them, including their descendants, living in Gaza. Which means that by definition, they are Israeli Citizens. Only a Racist would suggest that one section of the INHABATANTS should be denied the same rights to citizenship as another as this “Admin” is pushing in his/her comments.
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Regarding Neil:
Readers, you have to watch for what Neil is not saying just as much as what he is saying, to figure out that he isn’t as plausible as he sounds.
For example, he talks about “inhabitants” in the declaration of independence but then leaves out that the “inhabitants” he has in mind, are bent on destroying the State of Israel, that its very existence is an anathema to them.
Maybe he’s blind to the security argument because he doesn’t think Israel should exist in its current form anyway, so whatever anyone does in the name of destroying Israel is legitimized as a partisan act or act of resistance.
He rattles on about Apartheid and doesn’t realize that it was the international community’s desire to set up an ethnic homeland that legitimizes Israel as a Jewish homeland.
Neil’s apartheid point takes away the world’s right to create ethnic refuges where that ethnicity might be experiencing widespread persecution just for being born into that ethnic group.
Neil ignores that Jews are indigenous people too. He tries to somehow make the Arab-Israeli conflict seem analogous to the Maori-Pakeha indigenous rights issue.
But there are many prominent Maori who see the Jew as the disenfranchised indigenous people. Not the Arabs.
In fact the Arabs are the foreign conquerors. They never had an international community vote for a homeland to be established.
Neil uses a series of tactics to get you riled up so that you don’t think clearly: He baits you to get you to reply, then he buries you with lots of selective references and his strange use of Maori language to give himself plausibility.
Looking at what he’s said so far, you will never see him acknowledge that whoever he thinks disagrees with him has any truth in what they say.
You won’t see him give you a list of well researched articles and opinions that point out the weaknesses in the “sources” and “expert opinions” that he puts out there.
I’m not saying don’t read his list. Just be very aware that his is an extremely blinkered view of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
After reading his list, go and read the even larger body of learned and researched writings that put the other side before making up your mind.
But someone else has said he is a troll. He gets off on people replying and it seems, he always wants the last word. Therefore this will be my last time I place a comment on this thread, he has had too much oxygen already.
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Hi there Neil
We don’t intervene lightly. However, a valid role of a site admin is to moderate the discourse if necessary. If you research the prevailing wisdom for site admins, we are charged with nurturing constructive discourse and dealing with trolls is one of those duties. And of course, this may require an intervention.
Despite the manner in which you have conducted yourself, we have yet to block or suppress your posts, despite your unfair accusations of us having done so. Or was that just an effort to manipulate us into allowing your posts to be published for a bit longer?
But as the number of your posts build up and a pattern emerges, it’s become clear that what you are doing isn’t debate anymore, it’s repetitive propaganda and trolling. You don’t raise facts to rebut the points respondents make to you. You either just keep repeatedly pushing a message or you personally mock someone with unsubstantiated scorn and vitriol.
To us, debate should be about setting out the arguments for and against a particular issue. Not brow beating someone into submission.
Since you are no longer adding to the debate anymore, since we have a duty to protect those who genuinely want to debate the issues, there seems little point in allowing you to continue trolling those who are following this website or want to participate in genuine debate.
Consequently your posts will no longer be accepted on this site. We do not do this lightly as we value your freedom of speech but we’ve given you a good shake of the stick, and your views and conduct are recorded here on this thread, among others, for all to read and consider. They will not be deleted.
Nothing new under the sun. We all know what motivates him. Many scholars now claim that obsessively picking on Israel and modern Zionism (as if we were the source of all evil) is a modern-world symptom of the old and ugly Jew hating disease.
It is important that young people coming here understand that, and that we won’t be intimidated. It is also necessary to keep showing with facts, that Israel may not be perfect but it is as good as it gets, and in the wild Middle East that’s a sort of miracle.